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September 05, 2006

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*Christopher

Fr. David,

Overall, this is a very helpful discussion.

However, I would take some issue with the division of shame and guilt that you make in terms of external/internal, as our internal compass is often shaped anteriorily by external relationships (and shaming) in such a way that we may not be aware that our guilt may be by coercion or may be inappropriate or dangerous and even enforced by long-standing cultural domination and oppressive ways of relating that have nothing to do with the Mind of Christ and the way Christ came relating to us.

As a gay man, I live with some sense of guilt for simply existing at all and I'm well aware of the many little ways over the years including comments by pastors, priests, parents, friends, teachers, etc.from the time I was quite small that shaped me to see myself that way. Unfortunately, generally speaking relationships within the institutions of the Church seek to reinforce this way of thinking about myself rather than not and are incredibly bound to culture and the world in ways the Church in its institutional representatives often deny. So that many times priests have not been reliable or helpful in terms of pastoral care, and at this stage it is the rare priest I would seek for counsel regarding my relationship or even the state of my soul on any matter. In other words, all of this hallaballoo has pastoral consequences and consequences for priests being able to pastor and has generally required that I seek spiritual direction from other than the ordained, and usually from Roman Catholic women religious who are more in tune with these types of dynamics, having experienced them themselves. I would suspect that people of colour in our racist culture both in the world and in the Church also live with such feelings.

James Alison makes some rather insightful comments on conscience in "The Joy of Being Wrong: Original Sin Through Easter Eyes." Alison would suggest that our internal voice, attending to the Still Quiet Voice if You Will, is something that too is always external, being a relationship, this time with God through the Holy Spirit.

I just don't think we can separate the internal from the external so easily, and that is why community, especially the Church, can be both powerfully freeing and incredibly debilitating, both of which I have experienced. The question I would ask is what difference does love make?

In the case of someone like myself, humility has begun by being embraced by others when I hated myself the most and recognizing that I am beloved of God, and letting that sink ever more deeply not simply into my head, but into my heart; beating up on myself was rather the opposite of humility, and indeed, its own form of pride. Humility for someone who finds himself (and it is often a him) on top of matters would looks somewhat differently. Unfortunately, as historian Carolyn Walker Bynum notes in her study of female Medieval mystics, much of our history and spirituality has been written from the perspective of men and of men on top of matters, and I often have benefited more from women religious, especially Benedictine women and their guidance in discipleship and on such matters than from men. Sr. Laura Swan's, OSB work "Engaging Benedict" is perhaps one of the best. She notes that for women (and I would say gay men as well), self-hatred is the primary sin, not pride (at least as understood in terms of men who are dominant in terms of the world).

I wrote something about this a bit back in response to Fr. Nick as I found his "investigation" mode somewhat naive given how we are shaped anteriorly by relationship:

http://regula.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_regula_archive.html

(just scroll down to Wednesday, August 09, 2006
Beyond Anteriority: What Effects Does Love Have?)

FrDavid

Thanks for your comments. I agree that separating shame and guilt is not easy. But the source of the suppression of an action can be discerned. Is the pressure taking the form of actual saction by others, or is it being applied from the person themselves. In some cases, probably both.

Humility gets a bad rap due to its sometime use as a blugeon, but the important point is that it calls us to acknowledgement of a proper relationship between God and ourselves. Just as a proper relationship requires us to acknowledge we are not God, it also requires us to acknowledge that we ARE human and therefore of infinite worth to God. An attitude that one is worthless is not a humble one - it usurps the judgement of God. Of course, when self-esteem problems are invovled, you don't want to tell someone this - it only accelerates the sprial.

Our state of Sin is not our fault, it is simply part of being human and in the end, all shall be well.

David+

*Christopher

Again, I just don't think it quite so easy to separate out the voices external and internal that pressure as our internal voices are often shaped by external pressures and on the other hand, sanction for actions that I would call immoral (such as bashing gay people or enslaving Africans) occured and occur externally that shape internal voices and gave/give sanction which is in turn reinforced by further external factors. In other words, I think conscience is far more complex than you have presented it to be with regard to shame and guilt, especially when dealing with minorities or those who face oppression in majority cultures, including Church (perhaps most dangerously as there is a tendency to attribute this to divine will and sanction and favor) in which certain types of people are not only majorities but often dominate others in ways subtle and not so subtle.

Humilty gets a bad rap some of it rightfully deserved indeed because it has been used historically to suppress women, African Americans, gays and others, and when used, must be done so with care, and open to questioning. To often in our history, humility, has suggested to women and minorities that men or the majority are very god, and true humility for such persons in such cases may be look quite differently than being simply submissive and so one, especially when that true humility is experienced by those in the dominant position.

Ronnie Johnson

What is the relationship between Humility and Forgiveness, in a Christ-like ambiance, I need some points for a presentation/discussion, can anyone please help me?
Thanks
God Bless

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